Curse

slowerpoke · Aug 07, 2009, 04:00 PM // 16:00

One of the core concepts of Guild Wars is the limited skill bar, 8 skills, 64 per team.

Skill selection is important, however it means limited adaptability during battle. Wrong build or skills could mean trouble.

Is what you bring more important than how you use it?

Would Guild Wars be better if we could bring more than 8 skills?

For GW2, at least for PvE will be open instance, that will mean that the skillbar is potentially adjustable in combat zone.

Arduin · Aug 07, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I like the ability to only bring 8 skills. It needed you to plan ahead, and if planned badly, you'd probably get wiped.

Don't forget the addition of consumables already enabled people to bring 'more than 8 skills'. For instance, people didn't need to bring an IAS anymore, because they could just pop an Essence of Celerity. You didn't need to bring a rez anymore, because you could as well wipe, rez at a shrine and use a DP remover. And who needs a skill that increased your defense when an Armor of Salvation already gives you a nice boost?

In my opinion, Guild Wars would be alot worse when we are able to bring more skills. The limitation of 8 makes you specialize in a certain area, be it DPS, snaring, protection, healing, support... It emphasizes teamplay, you need to play as a team to be effective, no profession can perform on its own.

Targren · Aug 07, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

For GW2, at least for PvE will be open instance, that will mean that the skillbar is potentially adjustable in combat zone.

If that's true, it's yet another one of many great, unique features GW ushered in that they will be abandoning.

The 8-skill bar was a great idea and adds a lot to my enjoyment of GW.

tasha · Aug 07, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

To be honest, I love it. It makes the game what it is. I don't think that Guild Wars would be better if we had more than 8 skills, it would probably be worse due to the ability to pack extra counters in the bar. Having the limited selection forces people to counter with their actions and helps enforce balance. Clearly what you bring isn't as important as how you use it - give the same build to a r ~20 guild and a r~800 guild and see who comes up on top most in a best of 5. Yes there's an element of rock paper scissors, but I don't think there's any current build that you can't beat by use of tactics. Same in PvE - usually, even if you don't have an ideal setup, you can work around the problem by approaching it differently.

slowerpoke · Aug 07, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

For PvE, planning ahead is of course always a good idea, especially going into a static area were the opposition is unchanging. However in PvP when you cant predict what you'll face, skill selection becomes more of a factor in success.

In the argument of skill selection versus skill use, consumables bypass it by not being skills themselves, or limited in quantity or selection.

While i think consumables are a poor addition to the game, i understand why they were added. its more a game design flaw of the level cap and the need to increase the combat challenge in some areas. the silly buffs monster received in PvE hm, while the player essentially has the same stats opened a demand for a player equalizer.

Unfortunately players are free to then use these items at any point of the game, areas which were not designed to take the players new found advantage into account. And that's simply a form of power creep common in a lot of games.

Fay Vert · Aug 07, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

As a game it sort of worked, but it has also lead to big skill balancing problems. On the whole I would rather have a game with less skills but better thought out and freedom of choice in the professions.

The whole two profession concept sort of fell apart too with infinate respec. It was much better having the freedom, but the game wasn't designed that way so what we have here now was never intended and so its a bit of an uncomfortable bodge.

snaek · Aug 07, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

good: being able to choose 8 skills
bad: having 1319 skills to choose from

Cool Down · Aug 07, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I think it worked out really well and i hope they wont change it in gw2

they could make skill change zones or maybe do it so you would have to talk to some priest or a shrine to be able to change

Kerwyn Nasilan · Aug 07, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

As much as the extra skill(s) could be useful, I think 8 is just fine. Dont wanna be overwhelmed with 900,000 skills are over your screen.

Qing Guang · Aug 07, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

The 8-skill bar is one of the things that makes GW unique, IMO. I like that it requires tactics, planning, and compromise - "Oh, I really should bring x, but I also think y would be useful... ah, maybe the other guy can bring x and I will bring y... but wait! Skill z combines the two for a slightly reduced effect - maybe I should bring that instead." Or "We know we are going to be fighting Destroyers here, and we have a Pyro, so I guess that means the Ranger has gotta bring Winter, which means maybe he's going to have to sacrifice another skill and one of us can fill that in." It actually requires thinking.

It's one of my big struggling points with WoW. I have my entire keyboard hotkeyed to all kinds of skills and items and what have you, and I can't keep track of them all, and they're always there. So I feel like I'm not really adapting to the situation any. Plus, all the skills feel the same - "Okay, this skill does degen, and so does this one, and so does this one... 1-2-3-spam-wand-attack." I feel like there's no need for all the skills since they don't accomplish different things.

So they better put the 8-skill-bar in GW2, or it really will just be a lame WoW/EQ/everyfantasymmothat'sbeenmadeinrecenthistory clone. My list of things to maintain for the next game:
- 8-skill bar
- Separation of item form and function (IE armor art =/= armor protection/buffs)
- Instances (but they've already said they won't do that... :P)
- Level cap (see above - hopefully it won't be really high, though it seems like they're leaning that way - personally I think 50 is as high as I'd want to go)
- Dual profession (unless they merge the professions by logical pairs as I suggested a while ago)

Kityn · Aug 07, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Skill bar with 8 skills was a great idea and I think it works well. However being able to change some of the skills while in zone would be nice. Extremely frustrating when someone forgets to bring an important skill or forgot to change their build and then have to restart. Specially when you have a limited time to play.
Also when going to a new area or mission that you haven't gone before being able to switch out skills on the fly would be nice. Should not be able to switch out skills while in combat though.. I really do not like restarting the same mission multiple times to just get the right skill selections. I haven't had to do that for a few years but I remember how it was when I was new to the game.

zwei2stein · Aug 07, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

From what i have seen, most of MMO skillsets are much simpler and players generally only use several skills while grinding/playing anyway.

They might as well all have 8-slot bar that is locked outside outpost, it would hardly change a thing. Don't be confused by some ~40 skill slots in wow screenies, noone is really using more than 8.

Example: I am cat (rawr), all i ever use is mangle-rake-tiger-rip-(shred & rawr & berserk in group), that is 4 to 7 skills. i get to cast a buff. Yay, i can fit to 8 skill slots. Sure there are tons of other abilities, but that does not mean they ever get used because they suck and are redundant - in a bad way, they are simply inferior and not get used. There is distinct lack of situational skill use, it all boils down to simple press-on-recharge and that is all it can be.

In guildwars, this is different, there are many abilities with quite pronounced "right situation - goldy, everywhere else - wothless" status. In adition, pretty much everything in GW stacks. There was some care taken - regen/degen caps for example. That that does not really fix rudiculousness of being able to stack everysingle monk enchant or every single hex or shout.

For what we were told, skill system in GW2 is going to be much, much simpler - first because they propably learned from ballance hell, so we are looking at some ~8 skills that form core of build and ~ 4 skills as swapouts to fine tune. Some limited self buff and target other buff. Nothing more. Which serves three purporses:

a) easy to ballance
b) easy to learn & play
c) easy to group with

Not to mention that since it is going to roots of mmoing, there will be strong solo component where all classes need way to solo mobs to grind xp. This suggests that monster bars will be much less varied and will be build so that they do not interfere with or even disable any gameplay style. We are talking about likes of melee foes using no skills or negligible, flavor, skills. This kind of gameplay does care about full access to skillbar - players will figure out most efficient grinder (party premade by devs) and use it. Since there will be no situations asking for different approach, any usage of more than 8 skills is not going to matter because they will be panic buttons at best. They can as well let people access whole skillset if GW2 is going to resemble any traditional MMO. It will make em happier to fill screen with icons that they never click, but that technically might click.

insidious420 · Aug 07, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Choosing 8 skills before battle, which then remain static during battle, can sometimes leave you hosed if you come up against something unexpected that the skills on your bar simply can't compete with.

I've been playing Demigod lately, & I like the on-the-fly customization you can do in there a bit better. You choose a character, enter battle, & then must choose which character-unique skills you want to power up, typically once per level. This allows adapting to strategies & enemies on-the-fly & feels a bit more 'fair' & player-skill-based.

However, I don't know how a similar system could be implemented in GW while keeping its unique feel. In short, I like the 8-skill bar, but think it could be made a bit more flexible somehow.

Gigashadow · Aug 07, 2009, 05:23 PM // 17:23

I wouldn't be surprised if in GW2 you can have more than 8 skills on your bar *in PvE*, to give you a much wider range of options. Today in GW you feel like a very specialized character due to the skill limitation, and that is fine, because if you are playing by yourself you are supposed to bring henchmen along to cover those weaknesses. However, if they are making it a little more like other MMOs, where your character can solo and be self-sufficient (as opposed to the model of you being a solo-player in an NPC party), then I can see them increasing the number of skills you can bring for PvE.

In PvP I think they should stick to the same limitation of 8.

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

They might as well all have 8-slot bar that is locked outside outpost, it would hardly change a thing. Don't be confused by some ~40 skill slots in wow screenies, noone is really using more than 8.

That is really not true. My disc priest used these in every PvP match: Dispel Magic, Mana Burn, Psychic Scream, Renew, Power Word: Shield, Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Penance, Shadow Word: Pain, Holy Fire, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Prayer of Mending, Pain Suppression, Power Infusion, Inner Fire, Inner Focus, Fear Ward, Will of the Forsaken, PvP Trinket. If you are just grinding on mobs you do use a lot fewer abilities though.

It will be interesting to see what the number of abilities is that feels "just right".

Xyon the Greatest · Aug 07, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

8 skills is suprisingly alot of skills...

stanzhao · Aug 07, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

dont forget that if you were allowed to have more than 8 skills, the game balance would be treated completely differently.

your probably thinking about it now, with 8 skills powered as they are thinking 'why cant i just have mending on the end?'. but if you were allowed to have your 9 or 10 skills, the skill balances would be completely different. otherwise, skill bars as they stand would be overpowered for farming etc if you were allowed more.

Yichi · Aug 07, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Most people that play the game now probably don't even remember why the reason is that you only have 8 skill slots on your bar.

Shayne Hawke · Aug 07, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Limited skill use in a team setup encourages players to pick skills and make builds that will work together with the whole team. It is a core element of the game and I believe that it works very well.

If you increased the number, then the skills we have access too might have to be globally nerfed as an extra skill may result in a stronger ability to synergize, bigger combos, or just more options mid battle. The same is if you decreased the number, but would be a buff instead of a nerf. If it works similar at all, I would prefer to keep the number of skills at eight in GW2, just for tradition's sake.

Lux Aeterna · Aug 07, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

It was one of the primary reasons I didn't buy the game after beta testing.

12chars

Dakka Dakka · Aug 07, 2009, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

If that's true, it's yet another one of many great, unique features GW ushered in that they will be abandoning.

The 8-skill bar was a great idea and adds a lot to my enjoyment of GW.

Not really as you would still be limited to the 8 you have on your bar, since GW2 is going to be persistent, meaning there will be no in town areas to act as "meeting zones" for outside quests and such so the ability to change your skills on the fly is a must. this doesn't mean that you can use every skill you have, just the ones on your bar